Biu Jee/Bil Tze

[CHuN]

Vad betyder namnet?

Vad är formens genomgående koncept?

Vad är det viktigaste att lära sig från formen?

Hur relaterar den till center-principerna?

Diskutera!


MvH
CHuN

[RobertK]

Hej, Biu Tze betyder något i stil med "Thrusting Fingers" och torde bli något som fram skjutande fingrar. Det är här som de riktiga kraftmomenten kommer in i Wing Chun. Man talar om 5 joint power (om jag inte minns fel), och hur man får alla dessa leder att jobba tillsammans för att få kraft i teknikerna. Formen innehåller bara öppna handtekniker och slag med fingertopparna. Man kan säga att Biu Tze innehåller "lösningen" på hur man försvarar sig mot det som du har fått lära dig i de tidigare formerna, sålunda lärdes Biu Tze bara ut till ett fåtal elever på den gamla goda tiden.
Hoppas att någon förstår min förklaring, eller kanske någon kan förtydliga lite

[jeff_lindqvist]

Jag har för mig att det var "seven joint power", men det spelar kanske ingen roll. Många talar om kraften som finns i Biu Gee. Varför använder man inte den kraften "redan från början"? Fast det kanske handlar om släktled och fokus.

För övrigt hittar jag även armbågar, låsningar, svep, sparkar, och elaka handtekniker med delar av knogarna, men det beror säkert än en gång på släktled, och vilka "glasögon" man har på sig. Beroende på position kan rörelserna motsvara nästan vad som helst.

Biu Gee anses ganska ofta innehålla "livräddar"-tekniker, och visst, jag är inte rätt person att säga att så inte är fallet. Däremot ställer jag mig dock om inte livsviktiga tekniker borde komma ganska tidigt i systemet... Sista utvägen, nödlösningar, om inget annat funkar... Varför får man inte de teknikerna med en gång?

Viktiga punkter som centrumlinje, positionering, "dörrar", struktur, YJKYM, balans, fotarbete, "vridmoment" och annat är fortfarande lika aktuellt. Man kanske kan säga att formen innehåller gamla tekniker i nya "kläder", och formen utgör vidare den tredje pusselbiten - inte nödvändigtvis toppen av pyramiden.

[pandiriver]

Ursprungligen postat av jeff_lindqvist

Varför får man inte de teknikerna med en gång?

Du får öppna egen skola och lära ut systemet "baklänges". SNT ska fasiken läras SIST! (-;

[Jesper Lundqvist]

Biu Tze (Leung Ting's rendering) is translated as "shooting/thrusting fingers", indicating that the form is primarily about developing a special kind of force - in "Wing Tsun Kuen" he mentions the motto "koon tze lik" ("force through the fingers"" and in his later work "Biu Tze" he also writes about "chat fat lek" ("seven joint force"). As to why you don't use this force already from the beginning, this is very easy to answer: The seven joints LT is talking about are the articulations on the finger (3), the wrist, the elbow, the shoulder and the spine - obviously you could not use 7 joint force if you clench your fist or do other techniques that eliminate some of those joints...

Although it is not mentioned explicitly anywhere in his books, Leung Ting's form can be considered an emergency form (gau gup sau) based on the following:

a) most people have a problem making the BT-CS sections work because they work them just as another sequence or nifty collection of techniques to practice - but the concept is completely different from the chi-sau sections 1 - 7 (techniques from SNT and CK). In those sections the idea is - roughly said - to defend/control and then attack the opponent, but in the BT-CS the idea is that you MUST attack, because you have no other choice, i.e. you missed your chance to defend "properly" for some reason. Attacking first is deemed inferior (in this context) compared with defense first, then counter because it is not possible to attack without exposing yourself to a counter. But in cases where you have missed your chance, taking this risk is better than doing nothing, you might even end up turning the tables on your opponent. This is the reason of the saying that BT can be dangerous for the exponent using it, nothing else... So, using BTCS effectively requires awesome sensibility, not so much to pressure, but more to timing, i.e. sensing when you have missed the boat... In the final analysis, it is much safer to use the "basic skills" than to rely on BTCS to win.

b) certain techniques are defensive only, although executed with an "attacking mind set", just think about the kwan sau and seung ha gang sau... These are not designed to attack or react to something specific, the idea is more an aggressive "cover move". This becomes evident when training the various BTCS sections - or even the "instructor level" basic sections (f.x. seung ha gang sau in 7th section CS)

Leung Ting's BT form has a choreography that goes from extremely short range (elbows) to mid-range (seung ha gaun sau) to long-range (fat-sau to the side, "great wheeling hands").

Also, it contains a lot of "po jung lek"-movements ("center cleaving force"), indicating that a lot of the movements are used "off center" and that it is very important to recover the center line.

Oh yes, I almost forgot, the proper way to execute the form according to LT tradition is VERY fast...

As for the importance of the BT form, it was interesting that it was only taught in invitation-only instructor's class in Hong Kong, when I was there. No techniques or movements from the 3rd form were allowed to be shown in normal classes... So, apparently the 3rd form is considered something special over there, not given to just anybody (sorry to wreck any romantic dreams of being able to go to HK a few times a year and learn LT's system in a couple of years...)

Concerning the idea that the keys to defeating "one form" lies with the next higher form, SNT<CK<BT<MYCF<LDBK<BCD, is of course completely silly - I know it is propagated in European WT circles, but nonetheless it is rather non-sensical. Why? Because the forms are not about techniques, but certain ideas and concepts, each being a piece to complete the puzzle - how is it possible that one piece can be better than another piece?

One reason the emergency techniques should not be taught in the beginning is logically that you should learn the "correct" movements, ideas, strategies and be skillful at using these first - if your skill is high enough, you would never need gau gup sau . If you try to use gau gup sau (i.e. break the basic rules) without the required degree of sensibility/timing/feeling they will not do you any good anyways , a waste of valuable training time.

But of course other lineages have other views...

Reg.
Jesper Lundqvist

[Asse]

@ Jesper

Do you know why Biu Tze is taught before the dummy form in LT system (due to developing skill before learning emergency). Other lineages seems to prefer the other way around.

[Jesper Lundqvist]

Your assumption is not correct...

Virtually ALL of the wing chun families, both Mainland China and HK-style, teach according to the progression SNT, CK, BT, MYCF, LDBK, BCD...

The only lineage I know of who does this differently is the WSL lineage - master Wong Shun Leung believed that the first half of the dummy form relates to the movements of SNT and CK and thusly taught this part of the form after CK. The second part of the dummy form, he felt, were of "BT-nature" and consequently was taught after the student had completed the 3rd form.

At least, this is what WSL explained when he was queried by YM as to why he was teaching like this (YM followed the traditionel teaching progression).

Reg.
Jesper Lundqvist

[jeff_lindqvist]

Thanks Jesper for a comprehensive reply. As for seven joint power or whatever magical power the third form is supposed to give you, I just wondered if the power really isn't possible to learn/use earlier on in the system. If memory serves, Forsaken has said smth about another approach to power generating (although in his new branch) and I believe Allan Jensen has said smth about it as well, regarding the "slow progression" in European (German?) WT and saving the good stuff till the very end... But I might of course have mixed all things up.

Asse - I believe the common order is the three hand forms and the dummy and then weapons, albeit with a possible overlap between BG and dummy as some motions in the dummy form might be close to what one has already learned from SLT and CK, just as Jesper pointed out - referring to WSL. (I had Randy Williams in mind)

[Asse]

My mistake, guess most books and videos I have are from different WSL masters (LT not counted) so I got the wrong impression.

I try it another way . Why is Bui Tze traditionally taught before the first sections of the dummy if they relate to the SNT and CK (skill vs emergency)?

[jeff_lindqvist]

Due to "tradition"?

Again, the first part might or might not have that close relation, depending on lineage. I suppose the dummy form is taught after the three hand forms because it "refines" them, adding a new "layer of skill". "Boosting" the practitioner to a new level. Teaching the dummy form (or part of it) before might be like serving the dessert whilst the party is still eating the main dish. I'm just guessing.

[Jesper Lundqvist]

Probably because it was WSL's idea that the 1st half of the dummy relates to forms 1 and 2... Remember, YM didn't teach like this.

If you are interested in WSL's thoughts on Biu Jee form, I suggest you should read the excellent piece on it by Mr. David Peterson (you can probably find the article on www.wingchunkuen.com).

One more thing to consider - the dummy is merely a tool that you can practise your boxing techniques on, it doesn't really confer anything special that you haven't learned before - at least techniquewise. Depending on how you train it, you can develop certain attributes however.

Also, as the dummy is not moving or attacking you, it would be quite ...strange... to practice emergency techniques on it

Finally, I'm not so sure how stricty curriculums are adhered to in China - I suspect that teaching is much more "liberal" over there, but I cannot say this with any degree of certainty. I would not be surprised if they teach in a more wholistic way that make this kind of discussions redundant

Magical power??? I don't find anything magical in wing chun - just good body mechanics, depending on which system we are talking about, of course
I don't think Leung Ting speaks only of "one type" of force, there are many - and no, this is not something you can learn sooner. The reason is not because of the form (I am sure you can learn to generate whatever force we are talking about without ever learning the form - f.x. Ku Lo village-family) but rather because of training methods and certain prerequisites both in terms of coordination (movement quality) but also your physical ability to "do it": consider, that to develop a certain level of power, your muscles and ligaments must be trained to do it - now, training muscles is easy, quite fast, but tendons/ligaments a completely different story. Consequently, even if you are taught "the good stuff" initially, you cannot "get it"...

Again, remember not all lineages think of BT as gau gup sau...


Reg.
Jesper Lundqvist

[frodestrom]

Vad betyder namnet?
Shooting (thrusting) fingers
Biu Tze is also called Gau Gap Sau - emergency hands.

Vad är formens genomgående koncept?
Biu Tze teaches you how to regain the centreline if somehow it is lost.
All the different sections deals with different situations.

Vad är det viktigaste att lära sig från formen?
Biu Tze teaches you way lik - elastic energy and jahng lik - elbow power.
Biu Tze also teach you what to do if there is no other alternatives, hence gau gap sau. It teach you how to be flexible in your movements (still with power) and contains some very deadly movements in the forms of the fingers and elbow.

Hur relaterar den till center-principerna?
It teaches you what to do if you looses control over the centreline.